Tuning S.C. (slow chat)#1, where we all want to go 160

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waspmike
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Re: Tuning S.C. (slow chat)#1, where we all want to go 160

Post by waspmike » Sun May 04, 2014 2:13 am

megadeyutzu,

I apologize my question was a trick question just to determine if you haven't replaced the counter spring not the clutch springs. Not everyone on forums is a mechanic!

SH 125i has the same power output, approx., as a PCX125. PCX 125 has the potential for a speed of at least 120. I am not an expert on SH so there maybe some technical differences like gearing and the aerodynamics of an SH maybe different.

SH is a bit heavier but you should be good for 107 -112 KPh depending on your weight.

With your J Costa about 7 kph faster. If you can find a slightly larger diameter rear tire in theory you could add another 5 kph.

Going downhill theoretically you could get 128-130, But my numbers are based on PCX! Lightest rider 70 kg, heaviest rider 100 kg.

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Re: Tuning S.C. (slow chat)#1, where we all want to go 160

Post by robber57 » Sun May 04, 2014 2:37 am

@megadeyutzu,
With all respect to your experience ,just simple and plainly NO.

I have a malossi delta clutch with the red springs at the highest and stiffest setting(which is much higher tension compared to red springs in a stock clutch) and have no problem whatsoever,nor do i ever had this problem,nor did i ever heard of someone having this problem.
With this setup the clutch is fully engaged (so no slipping) at 28 kmh, at 100 kmh the centrifugal force on the clutch shoes is roughly 4 times higher and with higher speeds the force will be even higher, theres no way the shoes can still be slipping if they are pushed with over 4 times the force required unless there is something wrong like greased up shoes, or the dampening rubbers (the little round rubbers in the clutch shoe)not placed correctly,which happens often.

Changing the springs is a bit of a nuisance and requires handling the shoes a lot, if you dont take the right precautions you will end up with dirty shoes and these will slip indeed and eventually the clutch will burn up.
Tip; when taking the clutch apart put some masking tape on the clutch shoe surfaces so they will stay clean while handling them and clean the clutch bell with solvent(brake cleaner) before putting it back together again.
If you get grease/oil/dirt on the friction material theres little hope of getting it off (even with solvent) as the friction material is porous and oil or grease will penetrate deeply in the material,soaking the shoes in solvent for prolonged time in an effort to wash the dirt out of the pores will eat the glue with which the friction material is bonded to the shoe.

But i am still anxious to solve yoour problem, can you tell us what brand/type your new clutch is?
Is it really an original honda clutch or an aftermarket brand like Newfren ?
And if it is an original honda clutch is it really the exact type which is correct for your sh model and build year?
Failure is not an option, it comes bundled with the package.

waspmike
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Re: Tuning S.C. (slow chat)#1, where we all want to go 160

Post by waspmike » Sun May 04, 2014 3:15 am

robber57 wrote:@megadeyutzu,

With this setup the clutch is fully engaged (so no slipping) at 28 kmh, at 100 kmh the centrifugal force on the clutch shoes is roughly 4 times higher and with higher speeds the force will be even higher, theres no way the shoes can still be slipping if they are pushed with over 4 times the force required unless there is something wrong like greased up shoes, or the dampening rubbers (the little round rubbers in the clutch shoe)not placed correctly,which happens often.
I concur but if my math is correct because of the relationship being "squared" it is more like 14 times. I think.
So no way simply changing clutch springs should effect top speed.

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Re: Tuning S.C. (slow chat)#1, where we all want to go 160

Post by megadeyutzu » Sun May 04, 2014 4:07 am

ok so be it.

I saw the difference.

now the variator, my back plate is stuck on the shaft. I don't know how to get it off, I tried different methods and nothing worked.

how could I get the varioator back plate out?
I love riding fast but safe.

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Re: Tuning S.C. (slow chat)#1, where we all want to go 160

Post by robber57 » Sun May 04, 2014 1:40 pm

waspmike wrote: I concur but if my math is correct because of the relationship being "squared" it is more like 14 times. I think.

Youre probably right and that was also my idea but i was not sure and lazy so i didnt do the effort in looking it up, it is anyhow at least 4 times higher which already makes it almost impossible for the clutch to slip at 100 kmh unless there is something wrong with it like grease on the friction material.

@megadeyutzu;
The friction material can get contaminated with grease but the cause doesnt have to be the mechanic with dirty hands,sorry for blaming possibly you for contaminating the shoes, it was not meant that way.

The torque-driver/driven-face inside the clutch is filled with 10 grams of grease which is quite a lot and can/will eventually run out the torque driver if the seal leaks.
As the variator case is a dusty environment dust will built up in the lip of the seal opening up the seal after which grease leaks out.

below: Partno 10 is the torque driver which slides over partno 9, the assembly is closed with a bush partno 14 which slides over the torque driver no 10,the whole assembly is filled with 10 grams of grease.
13 - KTG4E-1300 Driven face.jpg
Initially it will be almost invisibly tiny drops but this tiny amount is already enough to make the shoes loose traction, the grease is a ultra sticky long life type.

To check if this is your problem open up the clutch and with a compressed air gun try to blow the dust of the clutch parts and inside the variator case, if you see at any place dust which cannot be blown off you have either this problem or a leaking crankshaft or transmission seal.
The whole variator casing is a place where there should be nowhere any grease or oil,it should be bone-dry,if not it will screw up your clutch and accelerate wear on your variator because the dust will be fixed and build up to a solid crust around moving parts.
The dust is mix of friction material which is abrasive,belt rubber designed to give maximum friction,and belt reinforcement wires made of nylon or kevlar which is also abrassive.

To solve the problem you need to open up the torque driver,remove bearing 21 but leave bearing 22,wash all parts(but not bearing 21) in a solvent which does not harm the rubber of the seal or use any solvent and replace the seal,dry all parts,take notice that the seal lip is completely clean and filled with new grease ,assemble, fill up with new grease and assemble, install new brake shoes and assemble.

If your crankshaft seal is leaking your will find sticky dust in the clutch but also in the variator case, to solve this you need a new crankshaft seal ( 10 euro),it can be easily replaced,just remove the metal plate behind the variator en pry out the seal,its quite loose.

And then finally there is a possibility of a leaking transmission seal, overfilling the transmission can cause that temporarily, if the excess oil is drained of the leaking stops.
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waspmike
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Re: Tuning S.C. (slow chat)#1, where we all want to go 160

Post by waspmike » Sun May 04, 2014 6:08 pm

megadeyutzu wrote:ok so be it.

I saw the difference.

now the variator, my back plate is stuck on the shaft. I don't know how to get it off, I tried different methods and nothing worked.

how could I get the varioator back plate out?
Ouch. Do you have any penetrating fluid? Not WD-40 that will evaporate. If not you can make some out of 50% Automatic transmission fluid and 50% nail varnish remover (acetone)

Get some penetrating fluid and give it a good soak, then go for a coffee or something. Then it is tap the ramp plate and wiggle and it should come off. You could also try tapping it gently to try and turn it clockwise, then tap to try and turn anti-clockwise. Then wiggle etc..

If you need to pry it of be sure to have something on both sides so it comes off straight.

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Re: Tuning S.C. (slow chat)#1, where we all want to go 160

Post by megadeyutzu » Mon May 05, 2014 12:28 am

Can I use Engine oil instead of automatic fluid? My car is a manual:))
I love riding fast but safe.

waspmike
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Re: Tuning S.C. (slow chat)#1, where we all want to go 160

Post by waspmike » Mon May 05, 2014 1:16 am

:lol:

I suppose so but ATF has some additives. :idea: I just got the recipe from the Internet.

I use it as here in Thailand the safety zealots have not yet banned acetone as nail polish remover. Well there are no safety zealots but...

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Re: Tuning S.C. (slow chat)#1, where we all want to go 160

Post by aaron » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:44 pm

I recently purchased this item, but have not yet put it in. I haven't even really yet examined where the unit should actually be fastened. I'm wondering whether there is an existing or otherwise obvious mounting position for it? Any fiddling or modification required to mount?
robber57 wrote:So i got the Malossi fuel controller and mounted it.

It is a box which plugs between the oxygen sensor and ecu, installation is a 3 minute job.
Image

It receives from the oxygen sensor a voltage and changes it on the fly, this makes it almost certain that only the fuel values in "closed loop" are effected, these are the injection values given by the ecu to the injector between aprox 20% and 80% throttle
There is nothing to adjust, no dials,switches or whatever, its plug and play and so it is a easy and cheap alternative to the "real" fuel controllers like the juicebox or fastbox

The effect; it is more responsive in the midrange, gives a bigger punch when accelerating out of a corner especially when you go from 30% throttle to almost full.
The top speed stayed (almost) the same, i use to have exactly 110 km/h as topspeed, this seems to have been raised to 111 to 112 km/h, or its just me wanting to see a difference :lol:
For fuel economy and cant give any comments yet but it is likely that it will be lower, knowing how much will take emptying several tanks of fuel to get a average value.
2009 Yamaha C3 (2010 cannonballer and current daily rider), 2010 Honda SH150i (dream bike and prize possession), 2016 Yamaha Zuma 125 (all purpose plaything)

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Re: Tuning S.C. (slow chat)#1, where we all want to go 160

Post by robber57 » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:11 am

Just like i said; it mounts between O2 sensor and ecu and is plug and play.

On the exhaust next to the dipstick is the O2 sensor at the exhaust, remove the plastic wire-harnas bracket take the connection out of the bracket, seperate the O2 connector, connect the controller to the 2 plugs , hang controller somewhere with a ty-rap or screw( make sure to leave some loop in the wire so when the rearwheel goes up and down the cable wont break) , put the plastic bracket back and youre done.

The injection ecu has build in memory, it will take some time before old values based on the the injection without the controller are discarded and new injection values are stored , this may take up to 30 minutes driving in the city , just 30 minutes on the highway wont do it as you will have your throtlle only in one position, it needs to be varying so all stored values are replaced with new ones.
Failure is not an option, it comes bundled with the package.

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