modifying air intake system?

Figure out maintenance issues and discuss modifications
DarthEmma
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Re: modifying air intake system?

Post by DarthEmma » Mon Dec 23, 2013 6:37 am

waspmike wrote:
DarthEmma wrote: If it runs lean, we will get a fuel controller.
If anyone has other recommendations, please let us know. Thanks.
Honda CBR150 puts out 19hp a tad more than SH. As injectors are rated by HP it might be worth trying a CBR150 injector?

Pulse width from ECU same but more fuel.

Can you tell me where I can buy a CBR150 injector? I looked for them at my usual Honda parts sites, but couldn't find it. I assume that bike was not available in the US?

Thanks for your help.

DaBinChe
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Re: modifying air intake system?

Post by DaBinChe » Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:42 pm

America's hat had the cbr125 or was it the cbr150

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robber57
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Re: modifying air intake system?

Post by robber57 » Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:08 am

I doubt if the cbr indeed has a bigger injector and before purchase i would advise to check this.
The cbr has more hp but it also revs 2000 rpm higher compared to a sh, as HP=torque x rpm its possible/likely the cbr does not inject more but gets the higher hp from making more rpm.
Failure is not an option, it comes bundled with the package.

waspmike
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Re: modifying air intake system?

Post by waspmike » Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:27 am

robber57 wrote:I doubt if the cbr indeed has a bigger injector and before purchase i would advise to check this.
The cbr has more hp but it also revs 2000 rpm higher compared to a sh, as HP=torque x rpm its possible/likely the cbr does not inject more but gets the higher hp from making more rpm.
How can you get more Hp without burning more fuel? Just curious? :?:

If the CBR runs 2000 rpm more it is pumping more air so therefore needs more fuel. Am I missing something?

I should add that PCX hop-up boys here in Thailand use CBR150 throttle bodies for their 160+cc PCX's

But hey

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robber57
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Re: modifying air intake system?

Post by robber57 » Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:57 am

Most people dont really understand what the term hp means in case of a combustion engine; its the amount of torque on the crankshaft multiplied by the rpm of the engine.

Simplified:
hp=torque x rpm
16=1.88 x 8.5
18.8=1.88 x 10.0

You dont need to inject more fuel PER ONE COMBUSTION (cycle) to get from 16 hp to 19 hp just the raised rpm will already do that.

explained; horsepower formula explained it may surprise you

So the actual equation is more complex but basically it boils down to the force rotating the crankshaft times the number of revolutions of the crankshaft per minute.

Torque comes from the combustion pressure multiplied by the surface area of the piston multiplied by the 1/2 lenght of the piston stroke , so the combustion pressure comes from the amount of gasmix burnt.
So torque comes from the amount of fuel injected PER CYCLE which burns and gives thermal energy to the combustion,the thermal energy is enclosed by the combustion chamber so the thermal energy converts to pressure.

The fact that the cbr has more hp but also a higher rpm means that probably all of the increased hp comes from raising the rpm and not the torque.
10500/8500=1.23 so the rpm is about 1/4 higher.
If torque(injected fuel) would stay the same over this 2000 rpm it means hp from a sh would increase to 1.23x16=19.7 hp

In a certain time frame ( XX second/minute/hour) it will inject more fuel to go from 16 to 19 hp but PER CYCLE(1 combustion) it will inject the same amount, meaning it doesnt need a different injector to get to 19 HP

Ranking injectors by hp delivered is like saying "this injector can fill a bucket of 1 gallon" (in stead of saying" this injector can fill one gallon per minute"), injectors are rated by the amount of fuel delivered PER TIME FRAME
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waspmike
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Re: modifying air intake system?

Post by waspmike » Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:43 pm

So you are saying that the torque stays the same but the RPM increases?

So if an engine at a constant load burns fuel at 14:1 at say 9000 rpm, a speed at which it pumps X cubic meter of air per minute . Then if the RPM increases to say 11,000 then the engine pumps 11/9 x X cubic metres of air so the fuel must increase by 11/9 or the mixture will go lean.

If changing an exhaust for after market it increases the volumetric efficiency so the engine pumps more air and delivers more HP but the mixture goes lean so people buy electronic jet kits or whatever to increase the fuel flow. How is this different from changing an injector?

It is a case of $30 vs $250. Sure it may not be perfect but...

At least that is my understanding.

Happy to learn new stuff . Oh and Merry Christmas

Which is not a holiday here, so I am still at work. One of the joys of being self employed!

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robber57
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Re: modifying air intake system?

Post by robber57 » Wed Dec 25, 2013 4:12 am

This is unfortunately ,as i expected, a bitch to explain.

Quote:
"So if an engine at a constant load burns fuel at 14:1 at say 9000 rpm, a speed at which it pumps X cubic meter of air per minute . Then if the RPM increases to say 11,000 then the engine pumps 11/9 x X cubic meters of air so the fuel must increase by 11/9 or the mixture will go lean."

Yes the total amount of fuel per minute will go up , but in 1 combustion cycle it will still burn the same amount of fuel: 1:14 of the cylinder capacity
whether the engine runs 1000,8000 or 10000 rpm it doesnt need to inject no more then 1/14 fuel to make 1 combustion,the number of combustions per minute will change but not the amount of fuel injected in 1 combustion.

You have to look at it PER COMBUSTION CYCLE.
If in 1 combustion cycle X gram of fuel is injected and this results in Y torque at 8000 rpm and if i can make the engine rev 2000 rpm higher while still injecting and burning the X amount of fuel PER CYCLE then HP has risen by 8000+2000:8000=10/8=1.25
The output of an injector is a: not fixed and b; depending on the number of times per minute the injector opens and closes.
So an injector can inject the same amount of fuel per opening/close cycle and result in a range of HP delivered by the engine ranging from 0 to 20 HP depending on the rpm the engine makes
HP= a value calculated over the amount of combustion cycles PER TIME, it does reflect the amount of fuel burnt in a certain time
Torque represents the amount of fuel burnt in 1 combustion cycle and not the amount of fuel burnt in 1 minute.

The calculation says hp=rpm x torque
The calculation says 6= 3 x 2
If torque (2) stays the same and rpm (3) goes up to 4 you get:
HP=4 x 2
HP=8
I have just risen the rpm by 1 while maintaining torque at the same level and so HP is risen.


Just a simple example with numbers that dont reflect reality but just to give you the idea:

Engine A:
rpm=8000
Injected fuel per combustion cycle= 1 gram/cycle and delivers with this 1 gram of fuel 10 nM torque.
HP= rpm X torque
HP= 8000 X 10
HP= 8000 HP

Engine B:
rpm=8000
Injected fuel per combustion cycle= 1 gram/cycle and delivers with this 1 gram of fuel 10 nM torque
HP= rpm X torque
HP= 10000 X 10
HP= 10000 HP

The numbers dont make sense (10000 hp ;) ) but its the idea that counts.

So the amount of fuel PER CYCLE stays the same but because the engine is making more rpm you also inject MORE CYCLES PER MINUTE so you get more HP.
The amount of fuel injected each time it sprays stays the same but you inject more times PER MINUTE.

1 drop per minute ; few HP
Lots of drops per minute ; a lot of HP
But the DROP SIZE stays the same.

You may also conclude there are 2 ways of raising HP:
HP=torque x rpm
So you may raise the rpm and if torque stays the same hp will go up
Or:
You may raise the torque and if rpm stays the same hp will go up.
Failure is not an option, it comes bundled with the package.

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breaknwind
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Re: modifying air intake system?

Post by breaknwind » Wed Dec 25, 2013 4:28 am

Isn't the answer to changing the exhaust increases HP by vacuum vs pressure?

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robber57
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Re: modifying air intake system?

Post by robber57 » Wed Dec 25, 2013 5:39 am

breaknwind wrote:Isn't the answer to changing the exhaust increases HP by vacuum vs pressure?
Yes that may be but this has no meaning to what i am trying to explain, i am sorry i am no teacher, i have to grasp back to knowledge acquired a long time ago and i have no clue anymore how it was explained to me a long time ago, i may have to start digging up my old school books out of the cellar.
This is the stuff you learn when you become a mechanical engineer; why does an combustion engine deliver torque and as a consequence horsepower,what mechanisms are involved and how do they relate to each other mathematically.

Another way of looking at it:
If you burn 1 cup of air of 150cc you need 1/14 of the air weight in fuel to make one complete combustion cycle and use up all of the air and fuel.
150 cc air weighs 0.1773 grams, so to completely burn it you need 1/14 of 0.1773 grams= 0.01266 grams of fuel.
So each combustion cycle uses 0.01266 grams of fuel.
If you would run the engine at 8000 rpm the engine will use 8000 x 0.01266 gram= 101.28 grams per minute
If you would run the engine at 10000 rpm the engine will use 10000 x 0.01266 gram= 126.6 grams per minute.
The total amount of fuel per minute burnt goes up and so the horsepower but for 1 combustion cycle the injected amount stays the same.

At 8000 rpm the injector delivers fuel for 16 HP and at 10000 rpm the same injector delivers fuel for 19 HP,it does not inject more fuel in one spray but it does it more times per minute so HP goes up.

Rating injectors by HP is not the correct way to look at it, they should be rated in injected weight or volume per time.
If you would like to rate injectors in a scale that makes sense it would be better to rate them by volumetric capacity of 1 cylinder; this injector is suited for a cylinder of 150 cc or that injector is suited for a cylinder of 200 cc.
Whether the engine runs 1000 or 10,000 rpm doesnt matter as the the engine still uses no more then 1/14 of the air weight in fuel for one combustion.
Failure is not an option, it comes bundled with the package.

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breaknwind
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Re: modifying air intake system?

Post by breaknwind » Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:49 am

I'm picking up everything your putting down. I just thought I'd bring up the misconception that a different exhaust can change the 150cc of air entering the cylinder. I'm no engineer but I think that a MUFFLER is about sound not performance. Drag race cars use strait pipes. I learned from my piston problems that the fuel delivery is affected by the O2 sensor, can that be a solution? If you increase/decrease the diameter of a wire, you increase/decrease resistance. Also, most of the time a HP rating is followed by the RPM it is achieved.

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